The Angraecoid Alliance Membership -- Your Thoughts?

I agree fully with what theLab writes. I can´t formulate the issue better.

What I though have learned over the years are that in the orchid world nothing is holy and some people ALWAYS would like to find and buy rare endangered wild collected plants! I do not accuse anyone of you but these gready collectors will find their way to use the allience for their purposes...

 

hi, Oisifml, you ask for more communication what is being done in Madagascar.

Sorry, it´ll be long.


Anacampis morio
Ophrys bombyliflora
Ophrys ferrum-equinum
Orchis ustula
Epipactis palustris

These are native European orchids, terrestrial plants which can easily be in-vitro (and thus artificially) propagated in a laboratory. Correct? Ebay in Europe is full of hardy, terrestrial, European orchids. And some, rubbish, most of these vendors dig out the plants and have a nice seasonally income. That´s orchid-enthusiasm mixed with business.

What do you think happens upon Madagascar? Do you think that we, a few thousand miles apart, can persuade the inhabitants of Madagascar to protect their forests when not even we in Europe or America are able to protect our own orchid-flora sufficiently?

What would you think when you get an @mail from Madagascar that the Austrian or French Government shall immediately stop the cleaning of forests which is done to care for more room for the ecotourism – what means more ski-lopes, more ski-lifts, a new golf-course upon areas where orchids have been peacefully and silently growing before?
What you think when someone from Madagascar will prohibit and/or control what we are doing with our own, national flora?

Hardly anyone around the globe will do the tough job of propagating orchids artificially, caring for them for at least 2 years, putting a lot of money and time into that when it´s so easy taking a shovel, driving to the next forest or meadow and digging out the plant which can easily be sold at ebay, already as an established plant, flowering-size and being sure to make good money.
The same happens to Madagascar.

 

Do you know the Company Rio Tinto? No? But you should know them, Oisifml.
In West-Africa, Guinea, Rio Tinto is ablating a mountain. No, it’s not about a small mountain, not even a mountain in the length of 10 miles. It’s about a mountain-chain of 88 miles which will disappear completely because there’s iron in it and we as we are members of the master-race are supporting that because of our living-standard and because we want to be blind not looking at what happens in Guinea. But what´s Guinea, it´s far off? The orchid-flora is not really interesting there. Just a few endemically occurring plants, not worth mentioning them. When Rio Tinto will leave Guinea there will be a flat area where a mountain-chain stood once. What can we do against that?


http://www.riotintoironore.com/ENG/operations/301_simandou.asp

I am pretty sure you dispose of a mobile-phone, don´t you? Then you are responsible, too, for brutal working-conditions of poor employees (mostly kids) in Central Africa digging holes into mountains just to get to the substance Coltan which is stored in each mobile phone people carelessly carry in their pockets all over the globe. May I prohibit you used your mobile phone? And if I shouted it out loud, write it in thick letters onto the walls will you react in any way? But you think you have the right standing up for … Madagascar? Why? Because of orchids – we are interested in and they do neglect? Telling Madagascar´s government what they should do and what is prohibited? Who are we doing that? We comfortably lay back in our arm-chairs in Europe and in America making our minds up how to rescue the orchid-flora upon Madagascar but cannot even care for the protection of our own flora. Sorry, but that’s ridiculous.

 

In-situ-conservation is a nice thing, really, a challenge, interesting, fascinating and sometimes frustrating, too. I occupied with that the last 12 years. That´s a short period only but long enough to let you know, it cannot work by people sitting thousand of miles farther away and making their minds up. We have no ideas of the poorness of these people, we aren´t aware of their primitive living-standard, we don´t care about their health, their education, their way of living, to know more about their mentality, we don´t care how they are able to feed their children, we show empathy towards orchids, because these interest us most, but there´s no empathy towards the inhabitants of Madagascar. In-situ-conservation without in-situ-education is like selling ice-cream on the Northpole. A man has two eyes but sometimes he closes both in order to be double-blind.

Farmers upon Madagascar bring orchids they have collected in the wild to nurseries and get a few coins for them. These coins are part of their daily income in order to nourish their family. They don´t know anything about orchids, haven´t been educated in the newest taxonomy Kews publish and change constantly in order to keep us busy and the tag-producers rich. But they know how and where to find orchids as we know how and where to find mushrooms.
Can you tell me how impressing it will be persuading the inhabitants of Madagascar to resign collecting orchids but raising them in a laboratory? How many Angraecoids occur upon Madagascar? Some, yes some. But you say yourself that there are maybe 20 famous orchid-nurseries worldwide selling Angraecoids with more or less success, having interesting Angraekoids in their stock. At least I captured your words that way. And we all know that Angraecoids aren´t the famous or desired orchids. Boringly white. So tell me the prospects of a laboratory and a free-trade-nursery upon Madagascar? The moment orchids from Madagascar are sent to commercial-nurseries in America and Europe WE WILL CARE for the propagation and distribution and for the sale of those plants as they need no Cites, no Phyto, there is a moderate postage, short delivery-time, no risks in establishment of the plants, … . What’s with the free-trade-nursery upon Madagascar then? I am pretty sure it will be out of our interest exactly in the moment WE HAVE WHAT WE WANTED TO HAVE. They can go on breeding European mushrooms then.
This is exploitation, the same bloody exploitation what was made years and decades ago.

In-situ-conservation: what does it take - do you think - to re-establish orchids upon Madagascar? Right, it takes an area which should be well suiting. It takes some rangers to protect this area … and what does it take else? What’s the most essential part of an in-situ-conservation and re-establishment of a flora? And I am pretty sure most of you will have ignored it ! It takes the insect-fauna – the individual insect fauna. Has one of you blinded by orchids of Madagascar ever thought whether the essential insect-fauna still occurs there? No, it doesn´t occur there anymore either. Because of the insecticides needed in order to serve us with Banana, Coconut and Bourbon-Vanilla.
So the rangers protecting the areas of the re-established plants don´t carry a gun only but a little paint-brush, too, in order to pollinate the orchids which else couldn´t be pollinated anymore. The imagination is that ridiculous that I really could break down in laughing if it wasn´t so sad.

If you want to see a wide range of a living Orchid-Flora of Madagascar then buy a ticket and drive to London, Kew Gardens. Or visit the Botanical Garden in Leiden, Netherlands. Come to Vienna and have a great day within the largest Bulbophyllum-collection worldwide - including Africa & Madagascar. Visit the Suisse Orchid Foundation or the Botanical Garden in Geneva – they are specialized in the orchid-diversity of Madagascar. For West-Africa´s Orchid-Flora visit the Botanical Gardens in Belgium. And there are centres upon America as well, they all are collaborating, supporting each other, propagating, flasking, … . The only problem is the individual orchid-enthusiast keeping plants in his greenhouse and being eager to get more and still more doesn´t have access to that material. Commercial orchid-nurseries neither. One cannot buy these plants. This is really annoying, isn´t it? But this is part of ex-situ-conservation even if it doesn´t please some of you: no material to commercial growers, no plant, no pollinia, no seeds, no leaves and often not even access for the public !

I would support the Alliance as best as I can when starting with the propagation of material which is already there, stored in greenhouses or upon windowsills. Taking a look what you cultivate in America, what do we cultivate upon Europe, what is cultivated and theoretically available upon Australia. Even among the common orchid-lovers there are enough Angraecoids and different ones in genus, species and clones in order to start with an exchange of pollinia and seeds. That would be far enough in order to take a look whether it works, stagnates or fails.
But it´s the wrong way to watch out for material what is still left in the collection of one´s own and thinking to get to that material by founding a conservation-program or taking part in it. I am still waiting on a list what we could propagate seen from material which is already there and available. But obviously most look at Madagascar being already nervous what to get over the Alliance.

Once more, to me it has been a mistake mentioning commercial-growers in the Newsletter. This worries Botanical Gardens a lot (as I already noticed over the last days). Believe me it takes a phone-call from Kews-London to Antananarivo-Madagascar only announcing that there´s a project planned, kindly defined as a conservation-program but including commercial-growers and there will be real troubles ahead. The connections among Kews and Madagascar are brilliant. Did nobody take time for a proofreading before the Newsletter has been published and sent? I already got 3 mails from European Botanical Gardens carrying the newsletter as an attachment asking me, "do you know anything about that, do you have any details, are you involved !?"
What shall I reply to them, “stay cool, we, too, are waiting on any bylaws to arrive?”

There are aims of the Angraekoid-Alliance I can imagine to support, be it with material from my plants or offering the knowledge in flasking. But I would rather continue collaborating with Botanical Gardens as a trustful, reliable partner to them, doing the flasking for them, giving and receving, than risking losing their contact because I start serving commercial-growers in the disguise of “conservation”.

 

LOL the LAB… I thought my email might trigger some reaction from you and it did.. obviously you have time to waste on the computer when you are not flaskings angraecoids..

I did not say there are 20 nurseries “worldwide “ selling angraecoids I am saying there are about 20 very common species you can get easily in nurseries around the world..(strictly angraecoids) and it would be cool if those nurseries would grow more diversified species from seed so as not to plunder the native land ( of Madagascar) I don’t understand how this is counter productive . Everyone is happy to buy a legal healthy orchid from a nursery rather than a half-dead twit with 2 roots poached from a tree… and the availability of those will stop the poaching.

Of course you realize 75% of your answer is simply off subject… pitiful mix of all the clichés and trying to shame me because you speculate I might use a cell phone.. sure go ahead.. ( looking at my bill now I see I used it 1minute and 17 seconds over the past month and my phone is 8 years old.. care to do better?)

As for terrestrial orchids in Europe yes they are some, many endangered and you know what? recently they have been great stride in their culture and propagation so you can now buy the most spectacular species ( that are grown in nurseries) and a few people are happy to buy those and it actually has reduced the poaching.

And in any case , in is not so much the “gready” collector as PH.D Magnus says ( Magnus where did you get your P.H.D .? or is that an acronym for Poor Head Debilitated ?) that is the real problem, it is deforestation and you are as you say just as helpless as me there my friend.

Thanks for suggesting I buy a ticket to Kews.. but hey, I might modestly pollute on my way there…and I might even use my cell phone to call my wife.

There are many people that flask orchids and grow then “avec amour” they don’t whine endlessly about “how hard it is” and you know what? They don’t even do it for the money… they do it so those orchids are available within their country ( or Europe or the USA) and it does reduce poaching.

I love conspiracy theories too, so those worried botanical gardens have me worried too… yes surely Elvis must be also poaching orchids in Madagascar… keep me posted there!!

And by the way, if you are the Austrian dude I am thinking about, you surely got a package from France last February … or is that not you?

 

mhm, we regularly receive packages from France, almost weekly and I am just about preparing one for France, too. What do you mean exactly? I can imagine that will be of interest for some, me either.
By the way thanks for calling me "dude". This is your level, Oisifml, not mine. Anything else you can carry here in except personal insultations? Why do you insult Magnus, disparaging his nick-name? What comes next, throwing a bomb upon our heads and upon those who act & think more different than you give the permission to?
I was taught when there are no arguments left anymore, one feels pressed in a corner one starts to offend and to insult. That´s to accept, I am pretty sure both, Magnus and I will get over that. Once more, not my level, and I suppose Magnus´ neither.

 

You confuse insult with irony... but never mind yes I fully agree you are so much above me , how did I not see that..

 

Peculiar kind of irony accusing another to be a Poor Head Debilitated one.
What´s with the parcel from France last February, what should have been in it?

 

Oh nothing... a small parcel with no import permit perhaps and maybe also an English dictionary where you would have learned that "dude" is colloquial not insulting..( look up colloquial on Google)

When I read a post from a "PHD", if you have the infatuation to put that in your avatar or would that be ironic?, I tend to look for good spelling...spell checkers abound.

English is not my mother tongue yet when I write a post that will be read by some, I strive to make it look readable.
I am not going to answer your post any more because I don't want to intensify a quarrel if you are wise you will let it rest to.

 

So, you impute I do import orchids without a license? That´s really interesting, some more calumnies? I would reommend you take care what you are writing.

May I ask the administrator of that Alliance to save the IP-address of Oisifml. I keep a company and won´t let this accusation unanswered, you slur on my reputation.
Thanks

 

Chill out, guys! Let's keep this discussion civil and remember that some nuances of irony and whatnot may be lost in translation...

Matthias, why are you so dead-set against commercial operations selling seedlings of rare angraecoids? Commercial nurseries are an important way to distribute plant material to the masses. If a plant becomes widely available in the trade and cultivated by many collectors then it's no longer as rare and endangered; isn't that a good thing? ex-situ conservation is not most effectively accomplished in botanical gardens alone, especially if these gardens lock away their collections from geneflow and exchange with those plants grown by the general public. There are many, many orchids held in private collections (including those of commercial vendors) that are valuable members of a diverse captive population. Shutting these plants out of conservation efforts merely because someone might make a couple of bucks on their sale seems a bit shortsighted to me...

 

I've been quietly following this thread, as I'm sure many have, and I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed how a few misunderstandings has caused a near total derailment.

This thread isn't meant for personal attacks and bickering. Take that behind the scenes... I haven't received the newsletter yet, but I think we all should be applauding Sarah for going through all the work she's already put in to get this going. No one else has made the effort to compile as many Ang lovers into one organization to pool resources prior to this, so why complain?

Of course, the newsletter seems more focused on American growers. Since Sarah lives in the U.S., I'm sure she knows many more people interested in Angs here than abroad. That's not to say there aren't many, many people in Europe, Australia, etc. that are interested, but if they don't post on forums how are we supposed to know their interest half a world away? I believe this is the reason it was distributed to a few people in Europe, etc. Not only for your own personal interest, but also to distribute to others that you know to make this a more worldwide organization. Another thing to consider... some species are considered common in Europe but impossible to find in the U.S. and vice versa. Matthias, I see you mention Aerangis pumilio as "restricted". As far as I know, Aerangis pumilio is a synonym for Aerangis hyaloides, which is extremely common here. If an alliance member from overseas were to send a rare (U.S. interpretation) species' pollen or seed to the U.S., they may or may not be able to obtain seedlings from that seed, but they could receive an equally "rare" (in their country) species pollen or seed in return.

As far as excluding commercial growers...I totally disagree. I know of a few commercial or semi-commercial growers who would be very interested in helping the alliance in the U.S. Many have very rare plants tucked away in the back or in their private collections, and they have all been very wiling to send pollen of their plants in order to pollinate a hobbyist's plant. They may also be willing to do the flasking work. This may be an apples to oranges (orchids to frogs) comparison, but take a look at the work Mark Pepper and Understory Enterprises has done in South America. He is a commercial frog breeder, who has worked with the various governments to improve and preserve native habitat, increase wild populations of animals and educate natives on the benefits of maintaing biodiversity instead of cutting down the forests for monoculture. All of his efforts are funded by supplying captive bred frog species to collectors in the U.S. and Europe. So far, I believe he has worked in Ecuador, Peru, and Colombia. Obviously, his efforts have been a success, and he is a commercial breeder when it all boils down. I'm not saying that it's feasible to do this in our cricumstances, but it definitely is a possibility and something to look into.

Again, thank you Sarah. Let's try to get this thread back on track.

 

If you are interested in my background, I have my Ph.D. in organic chemistry from Stockholm University, Sweden. Under and after my Ph.D., I have worked within a world leading collaboration with the aim to mimic the Photosystem II in nature for Solar fuel production from water and light.
The long term goal is to be able to exchange non renewable fossil fuels with methanol or hydrogen.

Sorry that i wrote my title under my true name oisifml, who ever you are. I would not under any circumstances give my opinion under pseudonym as I can stand for my opinions, and definitely not making fun of people over the internet!

But now, after describing my own modest contribution to solve the global energy problem (and therby also the following possibly climate problem) I would like to know what you are doing for mankind to make the world a better place?


/Magnus

 

So you mean that Phrag. kovachii is not endangered by illegal collection?
Or the fact that the Thai forest close to the Burma border is stripped of orchid while on the other side of the border the trees are full of them? (From first hand eyewitness)

I agree that deforestation is a big problem for "all" orchids BUT for sought after species, as for Phrag. kovachii and others, the black market of orchid collectors are probably a much bigger problem. And the black market is driven by commersial growers along with privat orchid fanatics.

 

Hey Magnus,
I apologize for having been a little rude with you ... as I said i will not intervene again here but I believe apologies should be public so I have sent you a private mail with my argument, but I will put the apology here, please accept it and I blame my poor sense of irony.

 

Good morning Nathaniel, you already mentioned the answer yourself in your next sentence:

What does this mean and what does this cause?
1) In order to distribute plant material to masses – it requires to produce this material in masses
2) this causes a higher risk and finally the pressure of hybridizing Angraecoids which actually are a genus still spared from hybridism in comparism with the genus of Odontoglossum, Oncidium, Vanda, Cattleya or Phalaenopsis. Intergeneric hybridism wouldn’t be the main problem but hybriziding plants within one section of – for instance – Angraecum which all look the same will be a horror.
You will agree that – for example – Angraecum bancoense and Angraecum distichum really look the same. It would really make no sense crossing both but to a lot of cultivators hybridizing a plant is attractive in order to get it registered at the RHS in London for a few GBP and having the right giving it a name one pleases.

95% of the orchid-growers and more have difficulties distinguishing bancoense from distichum. A cross of them both results in plants which: to 50% are anyhow in the typical middle seen from their habitus, it´s not a real bancoense and it´s not a typical distichum – it´s anyhow right in the middle. To 25% and to 25% this cross will cause plants which assemble the parental plant almost totally. Thus being so close to one of the parents that when such a plant will be sold and the tag gets lost it will be on the one hand quite easy identifying it as belonging to the Angraecum-section Dolabrifolia but on the other hand still easier to misidentify it being a species but it is about a hybrid. Hybridism is genetic pollution. I don´t want to be responsible for that.
Typical example: Most Vanda coerulea …. aren´t coerulea but a coerulea x Rothschildianum-cross. Who knows the difference? Almost no one. Or you can be totally sure that all of your Phalaenopsis mariae is not mariae … but the result of a cross even when the tag makes you believe it´s mariae. The genes are contaminated happened already many, many years in the past, done partly on purpose, partly on inattention.
If you now consider that within the sections of Angraecoids many of them look remarkably close to each other the produce in masses causes a mess which can never be corrected anymore.
Angraekoids have been both, so rare and partly to their own benefit so unattractive that most of them have been spared from any sort of hybridism until now. This will change (the experience showed it has changed at every genus) when the production goes straight into masses.


Next point:
If the re-production of plants stays small owners of plants will have a less personal problem to offer material be it in seeds, be it in pollinia. I am convinced the more the reproduction goes into the quantity the more we will lose cultivators being ready offering plant-material from their stock. The experience has proved that in the past a hundred times. Consider most of the cultivators hunted years just to get to a plant they have once seen in one of the Angraecoid-books. Some got their plants legal, some illegal. Moreover everyone owning a plant illegal will keep off offering material from his plant as this could be too hot for him.

Customers not having any Angraecoids in order to share material can be eased. They don´t have to contribute in any way, just laying back and waiting until the commercial vendors have these plants in stock and the plants can be purchased, legally and cheap. It´s just a matter of time. This makes it more and more unattractive for private collectors to offer material. Finally it´s like throwing pearls before swine. Is this the intention?

Conservation doesn’t imply a mass-production, rather the opposite. But what it takes are secure places where the plants will thrive and can immediately be re-brought into any sort of propagation. Conservation has nothing to do with serving the masses but to provide security for a plant´s existence.

And one of the most important facts, too, why I am totally against it forwarding plants to commercial nurseries is following:
if you plan to produce in masses - and the request after until rare/rarest plants will be high – what will happen with the free-trade-nursery upon Madagascar then which according to Sarah´s plan is charged with flasking and the distribution of flasks, too. How shall the free-trade-nursery upon Madagascar survive when skilled labs all over the globe start with the mass-production of the plants. Oisifml already recommended mass-production-labs in the Netherlands or Asia. They really produce in highest quantities you cannot even imagine of.
90 000 000 Phalaenopsis-hybrids annually are just produced for the European market in Dutch laboratories. Is it the plan to let Angraecoids end upon any windowsills, birthday-presents.
We all cannot predict how the market will react when we support to make Angraecoids available to everyone and all. They can stay unattractive but the opposite can happen as well. But we cannot stop the avelanche anymore when it already rolls. I don´t want to be responsible for that mess especially as these Angraecoids are striking my heart.

Maybe it really is a difference in our both mentality. America always wanted and wants to be the first, the strongest, the best, the fastest, the highest and showing the world the way. And it´s of course the only way leading to a good end. We in Europe are far more sceptic, cautious. If half of Sarah´s plan of conservation (take note “conservation” and nothing else) can be fulfilled one can be highly contented. It started with the conservation of rarest and endangered plants in Madagascar and status now is mass-production. That´s definitely not my thing.

First of all it will be about to re-produce the Angraecoid-species until the market is full, after that the hybridizing sets in to offer new attractions. Do you really want that mess? Then it has nothing to do with “preservation / conservation”? At least not what I keep conservation for. And as said – what happens to the free-trade-nursery upon Madagascar. They will even struggle a lot right from the beginning because of the far distance and the not-presented infrastructure upon Madagascar in order to get rid of their flasks. If I order flasks from a laboratory in Taiwan the flasks arrive 2 days later either in Frankfurt or in Munich, carefully wrapped and in a quality that you don´t even think of the plants travelled that far. It will take several years in order to establish the free-trade-nursery upon Madagascar to get close to one of the huge labs in Taiwan or Thailand in quality and logistic if this succeeds at all. That means the free-trade-nursery will sooner be closed again than it has been opened. It´s like a saying we are used to have here in Austria not knowing one says in America, too, but you will comprehend the meaning: the cat bites itself into its own tail.

 

Good morning, Goods … I keep the Angraecoid-Alliance for a brilliant platform in order to share material among continents which is already represented here but missing or totally lacking there. You asked why I keep Aergs pumilio as restricted whereas you in America have plenty of those. We hardly have it here offered. The plants which are reproduced in Taiwan are of doubting quality growing and flowering itself to death. That is unnatural and depends on the clones which are taken and used. Aergs. pumilio (or hayaloides as you say correctly) are the results of a tissue-culture.
I think you don´t have Aergs. decaryana we have plenty of. I would keep it for important to share material which is already there and to equalize the balance so that you will have plenty of clones, Australia and we, too.
I don´t have Angraeca but I keep one of the most outstanding and almost closest Aerangis collection all over the globe. From alcicornis until verdickii, collum-cygni, bouarensis, confusa, hologlottis, thompsonii, gravenreuthii, maireae, jacksonii, splendida, carnea, stelligera, … plants you can only dream of to own and I would be ready sharing these with you but definitely not when commercial-growers are involved into that project and not even when these commercial-growers are semi-commercial-growers. It´s not about the price I had to pay for those plants (most of them I hadn´t to pay for) but I dislike the aims you have more and more. I talked with mates here upon Europe and almost all keep the tasks of the Angraekoid-Alliance for useful, important but some aims are that counterproductive that one´s hairs stand to end.
And as I collaborate with some Botanical Gardens here upon Europe, doing the flasking for them, obtaining material from them for my own collections and even am allowed to forward material the door is locked in the moment the commerce is served. These are strict rules Botanical Gardens and Botanical Foundations have and are subjected to here upon Europe. As I am working for them I feel bound to these regulations as well.

I know my words have always a length of an essay. But it seems like in a train with no destination and no one knows to where it goes, all are happily shining, laughing. And I feel myself more and more in the position to say, hey, stopp, wake up ! We are still on the level fighting pro and contra the aims. No one until now got up saying - here´s my entire Angraecoid-collection, collected and grown over decades, take it, use it. This makes me think if we don´t discuss about something which hardly can be realized as the the plant-, pollen- and seed-donators are missing. Don´t you keep it for peculiar that the typical OI Angraecoid-nuts stay so mute?