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Phalenopsis Orchid Leaves Shrink started water cullture

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by kan, Nov 26, 2016.

  1. kan

    kan New Member

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    Hi
    I had a lot of rooot rot. SO I changed to new medium and the leaves started to shrink but it had 2 roots with black tip so I started water culture today ( 11/26/2016) . I am not sure whether to start water culture because it has 2 roots with black tip. Please advice. I am attaching photos.
    Earlier I have saved an Orchid with water culture but it did not have any roots before water culture.
     

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  2. iHeartOrchids

    iHeartOrchids Orchidaholic

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    Kan, have you ever considered doing semi-hydro with this Orchid? I am not sure why the tips are black, and it could be a sign they are beginning to rot. I would not give up hope, by a long shot.

    Whether you decide to keep it in water culture or switch over the semi-hydro, I would keep a steady supply of KLN flowing. I am having miraculous success with a Phal that had no roots and dehydrated leaves early July. I soaked it in KLN every few days, I put it in a zip lock "humidity" bag for a few days, then I put it in water culture for a few weeks and lastly, put it in semi-hydro as a last resort!

    Since then, she has grown 2 new leaves and 2 new aerial roots. Her shriveled up bunny ears have also hydrated...they are over 50% better. Most people would have thrown a sick Orchid like this in the trash, but I persisted, and it is paying off beautifully.

    If you have specific questions, I'd be delighted to help you. Never give up ...
     
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  3. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    Looks like this bears repeating: When roots grow, they "tailor" themselves on a cellular level to the environment in which they are growing. Once grown, the existing cells cannot change.

    If you now move that plant into a different environment, those roots will no longer be optimal for those new conditions, and will begin to fail. How rapidly they fail is determined by how great of a difference between the old-, and new environments.

    That's why the ideal time to repot a plant is just when new roots are emerging from the base of the plant. They will grow and support it while the old roots fail.

    I take a different approach with root growth stimulants. In this case, I'd suggest you make a solution using lukewarm water and hormone supplement of choice (KelpMax is far more effective than K-L-N or SuperThrive, but it won't be available for another month or so), and immerse the entire, bare-root plant in it for several hours. Pot it up and water it in with that solution.

    A rootless plant, or one with "iffy" roots cannot take up water well, but water loss through leaves is still a factor, and that's why the leaves collapse. If you invert a clear plastic bag over the plant and pot, and keep it shady and very warm, the humidity around it will be maximized to slow the transpiration losses, while the hormone treatment and warmth will stimulate root growth.

    I recommend against frequent application of hormone stimulants. The auxin/cytokinin cycle is normal in plants. When we use the stimulants, we are "spiking" the auxins to unnaturally high concentrations, which then does the same to the cytokinins, and that repeats, over and over. After spiking the auxins, it can take some ten days to two weeks for the production to drop back to normal levels, and as the cytokinin part of the cycle lags a bit, it can be anywhere from two-, to three weeks for the plant to "settle down."

    Think of their use as being analogous to a light switch - once you flip it up to turn on the light, repeated pressing up on it does not make it brighter.
     
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  4. kan

    kan New Member

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    ********************************

    Thank You for the reply
    I got kelp( Organic green kelp ) is that fine I this is a natural sea weed .I did not find KLN in the near by shop.
    Please let me know.
    **************************************************
     
  5. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    There is no way for us to know... is it sold as a stimulant or as a fertilizer?
     
  6. Latouria Lover

    Latouria Lover New Member

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    KLN contains two rooting hormones, both of them auxins. Kelp products contain three root hormones, auxins, gibberellins but is highest in cytokinins. Auxins stimulate plant cells to produce meristem cells (as long as the tissue contains stem cells) which then develop into roots. If cytokinin is also present root formation is blocked. In the study if cytokinin was added seven days after the auxin, roots will still form so the initiation of root growth is not reversed by cytokinin. KLN (or any auxin rooting hormone) would be a better choice to initiate root formation if none are present providing you can somehow get the plant to absorb it. Kelp (cytokinin) helps grow bigger and stronger roots once they are formed.
     
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  7. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    LL, you're right that one needs a product with more auxins than cytokinins, but you're being too general in your characterization of kelp products.

    All kelp products are not the same, and KelpMax, arguably the most effective formulation available, has an auxin:cytokinin ratio of almost 400:1. In addition to those, it contains abscisic acid, gibberellins, brassinolide, and castasterone, and a wide range of amino acids, vitamins, and nutrients.

    http://firstrays.com/free-information/feeding-and-watering/fertilizer-information/kelpmax/
     
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  8. kan

    kan New Member

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    Thank You for the reply
    fist ray shop is closed so I got "kelp green" from home depot I hope that should work. Please let me know if I can immerse the plant in kelp green and follow the method you mentioned.
     
  9. Latouria Lover

    Latouria Lover New Member

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    That is strange. All other kelp products that give an amount have just the opposite - 400:1 cytokinins to auxins. That is why living kelp is so large - the cytokinins. I wonder how they reverse the amount in Kelpmax.
     
  10. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    The chemistry of kelp products is determined by a variety of factors, with the species used, and how it is extracted being the most significant. Processing affects not only what is extracted, but what survives, as well, as heating, maceration, and chemical extraction can all break down the inherent chemistry.

    In the case of KelpMax, the kelp is harvested, rinsed with fresh water to get rid of residual salt, then placed in a vacuum chamber to "explode" the cells and release the juices. That is diluted, and a very tiny amount of stabilizer is added to give it a long shelf-life (it has been shown to remain active for as long as 4 years). Nothing else is done to it, or added.
     
  11. Latouria Lover

    Latouria Lover New Member

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    What species of kelp is used? Does the manufacturer of KelpMax harvest the kelp themselves? Most companies just buy bulk wholesale processed kelp which is usually Ascophyllum nodosum then repackage it. There are only one or two other kinds of kelp used commercially.

    Never mind - I found an image of the label. The species of kelp - Ecklonia maxima. KelpMax seems to be the US version of Kelpak.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
  12. kan

    kan New Member

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    It is a plant food
     

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  13. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    LL - Kelpak is world renowned as a superior product. It took me over 18 months of hounding them to get the contact info of the US importer. They sent me a sample, and I was stunned at the efficacy, and wanted to resell it, but the Kelpak folks in South Africa did not want to retail the product. After another six months of discussions, they finally agreed to retail - if I gave it a different name. An Internet naming contest is what led to "KelpMax."

    Kan- I evaluated that Southern Ag product a few years back, and simply wasn't that impressed. As a fertilizer, it's OK, but I really didn't see any particular stimulant properties.
     
  14. kan

    kan New Member

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    Thanks for your reply. I am looking for kelpmax in amazon but there is no stock as of now and kelpmax is not stored in home depot or fredmeyer. Can you please let me know where it is available . I am looking for a small bottle .
     
  15. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    My company, First Rays, is the sole source of supply. We are currently closed while we pack up and prepare to relocate from PA to NC.
     
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  16. Latouria Lover

    Latouria Lover New Member

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    You can get a phal to grow roots without using any supplements. They naturally have all of the hormones in the right amount. They form roots when they need water. Keeping them in as little water as you can without dehydrating them will usually work. The sphag and bag method is the classic way. Keep a small wrung out ball of moss or even use a kitchen sponge in the bag near the base of the phal. Keep the bag closed so the humidity stays high. You can leave it out of direct light and forget about it. It takes some time - a month or more but it will grow roots. I have used this method many times with great results. Some of the them are spiking right, a year after taking them out of the bag.

    p.s. Some people report success in other types of plants using a seed germination tea. You sprout seeds such as alfalfa, beans, wheat or barley in water then use the water on the plant. You can also macerate the tiny shoots in the water to get a more potent effect. It makes sense since those fast growing shoots are producing tons of growth hormones.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
  17. kan

    kan New Member

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    Thank you
    Will get from your company. But do you have small bottles . I see big cans in your website.
     
  18. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    The product will be available in 1-, 4-, and 10L packages.
     
  19. kan

    kan New Member

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    Thank you for the reply. I will get the 1 lit when it is available. The green kelp killed my two orchids.
     
  20. Latouria Lover

    Latouria Lover New Member

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    It would be hard to imagine how kelp green could kill your orchids. There isn't much in it. It was probably something else like over or under watering.