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Dendrobiums and Phyton 27

Discussion in 'Issues, Disease and Pests' started by Raven, Nov 8, 2021.

  1. Raven

    Raven Well-Known Member

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    I've had a friend take care of the greenhouse last week and she noticed that a plant of Dendrobium puniceum has developed some rot. She decided to spray that area of my collection with a fungicide. Her choice was Phyton 27....
    I use Phyton on Laelinae, Bulbophyllums, Angraecoids, and Pleurothallids. There were about 30 miniature Dendrobiums in the area that got sprayed. Some very rare oxyglossums and Pedlinonums!!!! I'm freaking out now. The dosage was not super high, about 1 ml per Liter of RO water. Does anybody have any experience with Oxyglossum/Pedilonum Dendrobiums and copper-based fungicides?
    What are the symptoms of copper toxicity and how soon do they normally develop?
     
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  2. Marni

    Marni Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member

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    First, I can't believe the arrogance of someone spraying someone else's collection without permission.

    I've never use Phyton 27 so I have no personal experience. I did find this from Baker and Baker: "Excess copper often shows as a symptom of iron deficiency such as yellow to white mottlng on new leaves with green veins. The condition may occur at low pH levels." 1 ml/L is their lowest recommended dosage that I could find. Hope everything is fine.
     
  3. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    The lore is that "dendrobiums and thin-leaved orchids" should not be treated with copper compounds, yet I have heard of folks doing just that with no issue.

    I know that copper sulfate can be used as a herbicide (often in ponds, mixed with fertilizer), but the concentration needs to be pretty substantial.

    Please keep us advised of the outcome of your unintended experiment.
     
  4. Raven

    Raven Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Marni. To my friend's excuse, she texted me and asked if I would like her to spray with a fungicide. I have around seven different fungicide varieties and I don't even consider Phyton 27 as one (I use it as a bactericide) so I didn't give her clear directions, thinking that this is a sort of common knowledge that you don't use copper stuff on Dendrobiums, right...
    She is an experienced grower but she only grows Cattleyas and Vandas and swears of using Phyton 27 all the time. She was not aware of that common knowledge, unfortunately. :(
    Anyhow, so far D. violaceum, D. puniceum and D. vannouhuysii are showing discoloration of leaves. D. puniceum is 100% a goner. Dendrobium cuthbertsonii, laevifolium, prasinum, alaticaulinum, limpidum, a bunch of cuthbertsonii-based hybrids, Cadetias seem to be unaffected. However, it could be simply too early to tell since they were sprayed on Sunday.
    I've heard anecdotal evidences of people using it on Dendrobium moschatum, and even on cuthbertsonii with a concentration twice lower than mine with success. I'll keep everybody updated since the information is scarce and it could be very useful to others.

    Marni and Ray, do you think remounting them with a fresh medium could help? Like, are there toxic levels of copper in the medium now?
     
  5. Marni

    Marni Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member

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    My first instinct was don't disturb the plants and add to the stress. If the copper is in a non-soluble from then I think getting onto fresh medium would be wise. I suspect Ray has a better understanding of this than I do.
     
  6. Raven

    Raven Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, Marni. I'll wait on Ray's input.
    On a side note, what systemic bactericide do you use? The only reason I kept Phyton 27 is that it really helps with Pseudomonas and Erwinia outbreaks.
     
  7. Chuck-NH

    Chuck-NH Well-Known Member

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    Hi Raven,

    a few years ago now, we went away this time of the year and came back to a sudden dieback on many of the cuthbertsonii. All I had was Phyton 27 and even though the label says not to use on Dendrobium, I blasted them with it anyway. I managed to save 90% of the cuthbertsonii and then started treating with Kelp Max and Innocucor (a discontinued probiotic). I can also say that some of the other PNGs received some overspray (vexillarius, sulphureum, violaceum) with no problems either. I did get some spray on a victoria-reginae and it did get instant spotting within a day and then dropped those leaves…it recovered quickly though.
     
  8. Marni

    Marni Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member

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    I rarely use one. I have used Subdue not long ago.
     
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  9. Raven

    Raven Well-Known Member

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    That's good to know! I'll keep everybody updated on the outcome.
    Do you remember what concentration have you used?
     
  10. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    Phyton 27 is simply copper sulfate, so is highly soluble. If you can flush the hell out of the mounts, you’ll remove any residual product.

    I’m going to jump on Raven’s response for a moment about probiotics.

    I used and sold Inocucor Garden Solution starting in 2014; they ceased production in Jan 2020. At that point, I picked up Quantum-Total (which is also sold as the privately-labeled and more expensive Quantum Orchid).

    They are frustrating products to use, not because of any difficulty, but because it’s difficult to see what they are doing, if anything. However, over time, you’ll note “Hey! Where are the rots or diseases?”. The microbe colonies attack and prevent bacterial and fungal attack. The key is doing a thorough treatment at first, wetting all plant surfaces and drenching the potting medium, then periodically reinforcing the population with a lesser dose.

    Inocucor has recently resumed production. Currently the product, renamed “Synrgro”, is available from Arbico Organics. I expect to be carrying it again soon.

    I have no doubt I will be asked, “which is better”, and there isn’t an answer. They are each made up of several microbe species, and there is a small overlap between formulas, but it almost doesn’t matter. In the microbe biz, it’s the more (species) the merrier (better). Synergro has bacteria and a fungus (brewers yeast), while Quantum-Total is strictly a bacterial product.

    While it is the microbes’ secretions that affect the plant and rhizosphere, Q-T takes it another step by having both photosynthetic and nitrogen-fixing species that produce food and fuel from right within the plant, without it having to expend its own resources to do so.

    Take a look at this:

    What do Plant Probiotics Do? › First Rays LLC
     
  11. Chuck-NH

    Chuck-NH Well-Known Member

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    Not off the top of my head…it may have been what they recommended for Orchids in general. As Ray mentioned, I flushed the unintended Dendrobiums quite vigorously that had received the overspray with rainwater
     
  12. Raven

    Raven Well-Known Member

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    I sprayed them well with RO so hoping for the best.
    Ray, I loved Inocucor. used it a lot but sometimes I would get an unwanted "present" with imported plants from South America or Asia. Last summer I imported a bunch of Pleurothallids from Ecuagenera and some of them arrived with what seems to be untreatable rot. Banrot, Subdue, Physan, nothing worked. Phyton 27 was the only solution that was able to fix them.
    I actually just checked the Arbico Organics website and couldn't find Synergro in stock.
     
  13. Ray

    Ray Orchid Iconoclast Supporting Member

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    Raven, I’m trying to carry it again, but the progress is slow.

    Arbico still calls it Inocucor Garden solution

    Inocucor GARDEN SOLUTION®
     
  14. J E

    J E Jaime Escobedo

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    Yikes.
     
  15. Marni

    Marni Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member

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    How are your plants?
     
  16. Raven

    Raven Well-Known Member

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    Out of more than thirty plants sprayed I only lost two, Dendrobium puniceum and D. prasinum. Dendrobium puniceum will be hard to replace but luckily, I have another clone of D. prasinum in my collection.
    Dendroboium violaceum lost half of the leaves but is already growing new ones. Other species were not affected at all!
     
  17. Marni

    Marni Well-Known Member Staff Member Supporting Member

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    That is very good news!