Welcome to OrchidsForum.com. We are a friendly online community for Orchid Growers all over the world. If you haven't joined yet we invite you to register and join our community. Hope to see you on our forums!

Cattleya loddigesii and Cattleya harrisoniana

Discussion in 'Orchid Species' started by naoki, Oct 6, 2021.

  1. naoki

    naoki Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,462
    Likes Received:
    1,169
    Location:
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Two plants which I got from Bela Vista flowered simultaneously this year. They used to flower in different time of the year. So I made a bit of comparison. I'm not completely sure if they are correct identification, but the differences described in Fowlie's book appear to describe these two plants mostly (more details in my blog post).

    Cattleya loddigesii tipo (S6180, left) and Cattleya harrisoniana (S1308G, right)
    P9150068.jpg


    Cattleya loddigesii
    P9150072.jpg

    Cattleya harrisoniana P9150091.jpg
     
    Sabinchen, J E, DPfarr and 4 others like this.
  2. DPfarr

    DPfarr Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,459
    Likes Received:
    452
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    J E likes this.
  3. naoki

    naoki Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,462
    Likes Received:
    1,169
    Location:
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Thank you for the info, Daniel, I looked at the paper. I think it is from:

    Berg, C., Higgins, W. E., Dressler, R. L., Whitten, W. M., Soto, A., Culham, A., & Chase, M. W. (2000). A phylogenetic analysis of Laeliinae (Orchidaceae) based on sequence data from internal transcribed spacers (ITS) of nuclear ribosomal DNA. Lindleyana, 15(2), 96-114.

    Yes, it would be weird if C. schilleriana is closer to C. loddigesii than C. harrisoniana! I think that C. loddigesii and C. shilleriana happen to be closest in the figure, but I would interpret that the branches around that clade aren't well resolved with ITS. The number above the branch is the branch length, and it looks like only 1 nucleotide is supporting the cluster of C. loddigesii and C. shilleriana. So the data says that C. schilleriana, C. loddigesii, C. intermedia, C. forbesii, and C. kerrii are likely to be closely related, but they need more data to see the relation within this cluster.
     
    DPfarr likes this.
  4. Sabinchen

    Sabinchen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    294
    Hello Naoki,
    I am wondering about your harrisoniana. It havn't the typical lip. Sorry, it looks like a hybrid. Look here two diffrent plants of harrisoniana. At your plants, the typical grooves are missed and it looks like harrisoniana x loddigesii. Sorry!
    28072020_Cattleya harrisoniana (9).jpg 28072020_Cattleya harrisoniana Gruppe (2).jpg
     
    GaryYG and J E like this.
  5. naoki

    naoki Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,462
    Likes Received:
    1,169
    Location:
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Thank you for your input, Sabinchen! The ridges on the lip extend much farther than C. loddigesii (as it can be seen in the dissected flower photo), but not as pronounced as yours. So you might be right, but I'm not sure. Would you say that this one in IOSPE doesn't have sufficient ridges/grooves? http://www.orchidspecies.com/orphotdir/cattlharrisoni.jpg
     
    Sabinchen likes this.
  6. tenman

    tenman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    899
    Likes Received:
    674
    Location:
    Ohio
    Very nice cattleya harrigesiis/loddisonianas. I still maintain this is one variable species. ALL of the supposedly distinguishing factors separating these two 'species' are present in both, even in situ. As far as the cladogram posted, as I've been saying for some years, clearly more work in this area needs to be done. Else we are to believe that violacea is BETWEEN walkeriana and nobilior?? I for one am not buying it!
     
  7. Sabinchen

    Sabinchen Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    294
    Hi naoki,
    in the past, both species were often crossed because one thought they were the same. I suspect your plant is such a cross.
    The shape of the flower also speaks for it.
    I think it is a hybrid in IOSPE, it is written there are unsure