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Building a cool vivarium - advice please

Discussion in 'Growing Areas' started by orchidkarma, Feb 16, 2010.

  1. orchidkarma

    orchidkarma Member

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    I just have scored a great HUGE terrarium that I plan to convert into a cool vivarium, cloud forest style. I plan to fill it with mainly Pleurothallids, EpiWeb interior.

    I would LOVE some input and advice on how to do this right from the very beginning. :) I'd love to see pics and hear specs of yours... pitfalls to avoid...

    This is what I have planned so far...

    The blank slate... It measures 175 cm wide, 160 cm tall, 65 cm deep. A light weight aluminium frame with 4 mm glass both on the sides and for the sliding doors on the front, a single sheet of double walled polycarbonate back wall. Pretty nice actually, it is light weight and I will never see it with the EpiWeb wall up.

    New cover/ceiling: Glass or plexi? I'm thinking 4mm glass (since I am unsure of the light properties of plexi), split into 2 panels, adding an aluminium support in the middle. This will also help support the weight of the light.

    Light. I was thinking Dulux 80W CFL’s. They run cool (important since it is to be a cool viv), and have deep penetration (good for at least 150 cm). But I cannot find fixtures for these bulbs. Ideas? The bulbs I have seen are 4000K, is that good enough? How many tubes do I need for this size viv?

    Rain system. What are good brands? Silent, non clogging... what else should I think about? How many nozzles do I need for this size viv? I have a R/O system already and plan to use this water.

    Cooling fan. System to draw cool air in from the outside though a wall vent. I'm thinking bathroom fan and flexible tubing, fan hooked to thermostat... (I have regular air circulation fans already for inside the viv.)

    Hygro/temp thermostat. What should I think about when shopping for this? Good brands?

    Humidifier. I plant to have this blow in at the same place as the cool air feed creating a cool fog. I already have an ultrasonic humidifier I use for the room, is there some kind of switch I could put on the PVC pipe to alternate fog flowing into the room, then into the viv, so I don't have to keep 2 humidifiers?

    afarm3.static.flickr.com_2693_4355313033_f7fa50fbde.jpg
     
  2. Jon

    Jon Mmmm... bulbophyllum...

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    That thing is a beauty! I'd love to have it in my living room.

    Glass. Plexiglass will warp. I would be hesitant to put the light on the glass, though. It might crack or shatter it. If you can figure out how to suspend a fixture above the whole cabinet, you'd be better off, IMO.

    I'm not familiar with those lights. In the US, High output T5 fluorescents are quite popular and efficient. For a good read on artificial lighting, read this --> indoor plant lighting. It's a pretty comprehensive discussion about lighting. I think you may have a problem with lighting because of the tank's height. 160cm seems really tall for light to reach the bottom. It may make sense to supplement with some fixtures hung vertically along the sides.

    I like the MistKing systems from Canada. They're pretty pricey, but they work really well. If you're interested in making one yourself, the Cloudtop systems are less expensive. Honestly, though, I'd recommend just getting a Mistking. If you want to use a Mistking, you are going to need some way to mount the nozzles. That means drilling the glass. If you want to water by hand (much less expensive), then local hardware centers should have moderately sized tanks that you can pressurize by pumping. Something on the order of a few liters. I would recommend using RO exclusively in the misting system as the nozzles can clog. That said, your plants will still need nutrition. Nutricote is a good slow-release fertilizer. It won't stain your glass like fertilizer through a sprayer will.

    Outside of the enclosure, or outside of your house? If it's just outside of the enclosure, your best bet would be to just leave the sliding door to the tank open a few inches. Fans inside the tank are going to be exposed to high humidity, and in my experience, they probably won't last very long. Look for an electronics/computer supply store near you (or on the internet) and try to find waterproof CPU fans. They're easy to wire, and 2 or 3 should be more than adequate for internal air circulation.

    Dunno. I haven't been able to find anything good like that yet. There's an American company that is about to start selling something that in theory should do everything you need. They haven't started shipping the product yet, but it's expected to come to market sometime over the next few months. Link --> HerpKeeper

    I think that it would be easier to just get a small reservoir of water in the tank and get an ultrasonic misting element. This place sells them in both US and European plug configurations --> Mainlandmart.com

    Other considerations are:
    1 - Drainage. How are you going to remove the excess water run-off? Pump? Passive drain? Turkey baster?
    2 - What happens if you go on vacation? Are you going to get a friend to take care of it, or would you rather it be completely automated?
    3 - Are the bottom joints water tight?
    4 - Unless you cool it to lower than room temperature, you will probably have some serious condensation on the glass. Depending on how the doors are configured, it might end up dripping onto the floor.
    5 - How will you treat pest problems?
    6 - How will you affix the Epiweb to the back & walls?
    7 - If you plan on having plants in pots, you will need some sort of support structure to keep them out of the standing water.

    That's all I can come up with right now.
     
  3. Magnus A

    Magnus A Ph.D.

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    OOOOhhh!

    Very nice cabinet Karma, congratulations!

    For the covering I agree with Jon, not plexi. It will scratch easily and in those dimension, it will Warp.

    For the light, rainsystem and Hygro/temp thermostat, take a look at www.dusk.se. If you have problem getting in contact with them please let me know and I will help you!

    Instead of a rainsystem, have you considered building a Epiweb IIS self watering system? I think it is quite easy to build yourself, at least I consider one for my next project.

    For circulation fans I find 120 cm computer fans good.Though same brands are more sensitive to moisture than others. They can be used for draw cool air in from the outside though a wall vent. I would not consider bathroom fan as those are often quite noisy, though the flexible tubing fore those are great.

    I would also point out the problem with drainage as Jon did! Consider what to do.

    What about extra insulation?
    What are your target night and day temperature?

    Please, keep us updated on your progress and good luck!
     
  4. orchidkarma

    orchidkarma Member

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    Thanks a lot guys!! :D And thanks for all the great input. Here are answers and reflections on what we have so far...

    Cover
    Glass it is for the top then, I had a feeling. I wonder if tempered glass could handle the temperatures? If not, perhaps I can put wood spacers or something between the glass and light. Suspending it might be a trick since I have such high ceilings... and old (not sure what it will hold).

    Thanks a lot for offering to help Magnus. I have looked at what Dusk has, and since I will order all the EpiWeb from them I might get the rest there too. I just like to check my options before committing.

    Fans
    Jon, I plan to pull the air from outside the house, temps rarely exceed 10-15 degrees C at night here so it will work great for cooling. Magnus, I hope that you are right and that the case fans will be strong enough to pull the cool air in since the bathroom fans are outrageously expensive, and yes, really noisy! I did not think it would be strong enough, but I have an extra 140mm fan (9 dBA, airflow 39 CFM, 66 m³/h) I can test with. I will report on how that goes.

    Jon, I was skeptical too that regular case fans would last very long in the viv, but I have had these 80mm Fractal case fans in my smaller warm viv. for over a year now and they are still going strong. They are not very expensive and nice and quiet too. I chose the 80 mm ones since they run much more silent than the smaller fans (only 11dBA). I friend came up with the great idea to silicone the exposed connectors so they would last longer. I think I will try that on this new build.

    Rainsystem
    Magnus, I tried the Epiweb IIS self watering system for a much smaller build a while back. It works great on the back wall, but I found it was not effective enough beyond that. I would like branches to stick out from the back wall, or perhaps build a "tree" out of EW to utilize the space in the center more. Then I will need a rain system for that anyway.

    I have looked at several different brands, but the one Dusk sells seem the most serious/havy duty. Some of the ones sold by reptile stores seem pretty "toy like". I have never seen MistKing here. How many nozzles will I need though?? Dusk's system comes with 2 nozzles, but I would imagine I'd need at least 4?

    Drainage
    Hmm, that I had not considered, so thanks a lot for the heads up! I do not know how water tight the bottom is, but I had planned to seal the seams with aquarium silicone just in case. Before doing that I will install a passive drain. The floor is some sort of plexi material, so that won't be hard to drill a hole in. The floor in the orchid room is actually linoleum so water damage is not too much of a concern - in moderation of course (I never thought I would be grateful for linoleum, lol.).

    Hygro/temp thermostat
    Thanks for the links, the HerpKeeper sounds interesting, similar to this one but it is quite pricey and only does temp... I have looked at the one Dusk sells, looks really good since it handles both temp and RH, especially for the price. I only wish they would say what brand they are selling so I can read up on it some more...

    Insulation
    I have thought about it, but am unsure how effective it would be since no matter what you do the front is still open with just glass as a barrier. Have anyone tried it? What material is best? I could put insulation on all sides but the front since I will cover the back and sides with EpiWeb anyway. Target temps probably somewhere between 8-12 C night/15-21 C day. My growing room is rarely warmer than 21 day/15 night the cooler part of the year, +5 during summer with few exceptions. So hopefully condensation will not be too much of an issue.

    Fogger/Humidifier
    I thought about using a fogger in the viv, but I really want to combine the cool air comign in with the fog, since it is this cooling orchids really benefit from the most. it would be hard placing a water reservoir up by the air intake (and it would need to be high since cool air sinks), and it would not look very good either... A humidifier on the outside is a better option I think.

    Light
    Jon, if you have not looked into the new PL light technology (CFL) lately, you should! Really cool stuff!! (an interesting read) Powerful enough to rival HID's yet compact and cool running (lasts 2,5 years w/ electronic ballast). They also have much better depth penetration than T5's, so I would not need lights on the sides. The three main manufacturers (in Europe) call these by different names but it is basically the same thing. Dulux L (Osram), Lynx L (Sylvania), or PL-L (Philips). I have several 55W PL-L's in my growing room and warm viv already and they are fantastic, so the new 80W should kick some serious butt!

    I actually just found some good info about the Dulux 80W on dartfrog.co.uk... They say that is it suited for tall vivaria, up to 180cm. Supposedly it still produces 5000 lux at 100 cm distance... They recommend one lamp every 60 cm in length and a row for every 20 cm in depth. Sooo, according to their recommendations I would need 3 rows, with 3 lamps per row. Wonder if it would be enough with 2 rows... 9 lights feels like a lot? Thoughts?

    Neither the fixtures from Dusk or Dartfrog come with reflectors so I have to find one that fits...Have you seen any place that sell just the reflectors without the ballast? It would be cool to find one long reflector, one for each row. Dartfrog has a dimmable electronic ballast option, that might be cool for when you want to enjoy the viv without wearing sunglasses...

    Other considerations
    Thanks for the brainstorm Jon.

    Automated?
    Yes, I want most operations to be automated, so I can leave it for a week without too much worries.

    Pests
    I hope I don't get any... ;) otherwise I am a big proponent of biological warfare over the use of poisions... eh nematodes and other predatory mites/miracle workers in other words... What were you thinking about Jon? Preventative measures?

    Affixing the Epiweb to the back & walls
    I was thinking I would screw it into the polycarbonate back wall, and the top 20 cm on the sides are actually plexi, so I should be able to screw into that as well. Otherwise I was considering hot glue.

    Plants in pots
    I wanted to place orchids in 11cm square plastic mesh pots on the bottom, I have been thinking about what to put them on. Roellke sells these plastic grates that could work. But I kind of wanted tiered rows so I can see the ones in the back better. Some sort of a stair step structure... I could probably fit 4 rows with 12 pots on each row comfortably (it fits 5 rows of 15 per row with no space in between). Ideas??


    Wow... long post. But this is important stuff! Thanks for walking me through it!! :D I will keep you posted on the progress.
     
  5. Alexis

    Alexis New Member

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    Wow, what a fantastic case! I can't wait to watch as this project progresses.
     
  6. Magnus A

    Magnus A Ph.D.

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    Karma, planning can be as good as building but never as good as planting the first orchids ;) !

    I have som more comments and remarks:

    I do not think you should use tempered glass, read link for more information http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughened_glass

    I am very happy to hear your experience on the Fractal case fans! I just bought 4 120cm as my favorite (ADDA), is not produced anymore. Have a 120am ADDA casefan that has been running at 12 V for more than 3 years in 70-100 %RH !
    For the strengt, it depends on the length of the tubings. I think you have to test and make sure you have a tight connection.

    For the rain system and glass cover. You could glue a aluminium L-beam with silicon to the glas that you screw the nozzles to. Just remeber to pre drill holes before you glue it as it can be hard to reach when in place.

    And for linoleum, it is NOT watertight, if it really is linoleum! Linoelium is water sensitive and should not be used in wet areas. Linoleum is not a water barrier.

    For extra insulation you could use styrofoam boards (Frigolit in Swedish) IF you need. You can by them in sheets 120*60 cm at for example Bauhaus, and you can get them in 1,2, 3 cm or larger thickness.

    For reflectors, I am pretty certain that Dusk have those but not on the webpage.

    For fixing the Epiweb, consider to glue it on with silicon, could though be problematic with the back as I do not know how well Silicon stuck on the polycarbonate.

    /M

    PS I am in planning of building a cooled cabinet myself. I have started to collect parts and hopefully I will finish before the summer...
     
  7. Aceetobe

    Aceetobe Member

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    You can always count on potheads for the best artificial lighting information. Wonder why?
     
  8. harrywitmore

    harrywitmore Member

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    Silicon does not stick well to any of the plastics in my opinion. I have found hot glue stick much better to plastics. But, once stuck it's pretty much impossible to get off.
     
  9. orchidkarma

    orchidkarma Member

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    Thanks a lot everyone!! :D

    Thanks for the heads up Harry. Now when you say it, I remember reading somethign about silicone not sticking to anything but glass... and I have aluminum and plastic... I will have to look for some epoxy or maybe the hot glue gun.

    Aceetobe: Simple... the only ones who are more crazy about light than we are, are Mary and Jane and her comrades... ;) I have learned tons about light on their forums though, hats off.

    Magnus... Ouch... ok, no tempered glas... I am happy to spread the word on the fans. I run 14 (!) fractal fans in my growing room and none has crapped out yet. The one right in front of the humidifier work to spread the fog more even in the window and it has run without a hitch for 2 years now, despite all the humidity. (I buy mine from Dustin.) Great advice on the aluminium L-beam for the nozzles, thanks! I asked the husband about the floor. It is actually not linoleum, it is a laminate of some sort. Probably some cheap IKEA product. The only floor in the apartment not replaced and sanded down to the original wood (good for me). Probably not water tight, but it won't be damaged from water being spilled on now and again. If we do something different with the room in the future, the floor is the first to be replaced anyway. If I have problems with cooling I will try insulating with styrofoam, good idea. I will test and see what holds the EW to the poly backing best... if no glue/silicone will do the trick I will screw it in place. I will ask Dusk about Dulux reflectors then, but I was leaning towards buying the lights from Dartfrog, it would be cheaper even with shipping... but we'll see.

    Absolutely!! I agree 100% You must document your build as well. :)
     
  10. Magnus A

    Magnus A Ph.D.

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    Yes Karma, I will do that. But I first need to decide on the design, collect the essential parts and calculate if I can afford it before I start posting. At this point it is mostly the economic part that is a concern...

    /Magnus
     
  11. masdevallia

    masdevallia Member

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    I´ve tried a computerfan to pull in air from outside of my house and it was totally useless to say the least. Instead I bought cylinderfan (rörfläkt ;)) from Claes Ohlsons... I don´t use right now but i was a more effective then the computerfan.
     
  12. orchidkarma

    orchidkarma Member

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    Thanks masdevallia! I am also afraid it will not be strong enough... The ones I have in the window only push air about 1 meter, so I actually put one on each side for adequate coverage... The distance from the vent to the tank is about 3,5 meters, so it will need to be pretty effective. But since I have one extra case fan laying around, I think I will try hooking it up to test it at least. If not, I have been looking at the cylinder fans too. Just thought they were kind of pricey... at least at K-Rauta, I will check Bauahaus and Claes Ohlson too though...

    I am debating what misting system to get... does anyone have any experience of the Basic Misting System from Dartfrog? (scroll about 1/2 way down on that page)

    This is also keeping me up at night... what is the best configuration for the Dulux lights (each light is approx 60 cm long)?
    Single lights placed front to back next to each other about 20 cm apart: | | | | | |
    or making two rows with 3 lights per row, kind of like this: = = =
     
  13. Alexis

    Alexis New Member

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    From a purely asthetic point of view, I think the lights placed next to each other would be more pleasing. If your cabinet is 65cm deep, and the lights are 60cm long, it seems like a perfect fit.

    For misting my Orchidarium (I have a Bimini), I use the MistKing system. I have a mix of both the deluxe and standard heads. They've worked great for 5 years now. I don't have experience with any other system. Oh, and I have 10 heads in my tank. I started with 4, and added more on two separate occassions.
     
  14. orchidkarma

    orchidkarma Member

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    Thanks Alex. :) Yes, I think it might look better that way too. I am also thinking that placing them like that, across front to back evenly spaced might also give me better lighting over all, in between plants and stuff.

    10 heads!! What size is your viv? I was thinking 4, but perhaps I am grossly underestimating this...? How are yours placed? I am thinking it might not be enough to have the nozzles along the top since my viv is so deep, but I suppose I have to test it and see.
     
  15. Gordon

    Gordon Member

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    Hej Karma

    i really like the basic mist system from Vivaria.nl, bought through Dartfrog. I use 4 of those "complete" mist heads in a viv 120 cm wide but they are not enough to water things properly, at the moment there is a "dry side" in the viv for winter resters so its not a problem. But i bought 4 more mist heads to install before the spring.. You will need more that you think, oh, and more tubing!
    I bought Dusks system first, but the mist heads were clumsy (the pump is good though, make sure you get one that wont be damaged by running dry, cos that will happen). Plus you need 2 holes for each head (one for the tube to the mist head and one for fastening the mister itself) Where you put these in relation to each other affects where it will point. Dartfrogs system is much more flexible - one hole only, and you can turn the mist head around.

    Magnus idea of an L-shaped aluminium beam is what i have done, but its hooked over the sides, not glued on.

    Dont hang the lights from your ceiling (clumsy), or lie them on the glass top (weight and heat). Build a simple top for your viv and hang the lights from there, so they dont lie on the glass.

    I have a plexiglass top on my viv cos i thought it would be good, easier to alter, etc. But i'm changing it to a glass top as the plexi has warped.

    How much will all the Epiweb weigh when it is wet? Will it be ok to hang that on the back and side walls with glue or screws? Maybe better to build a stand for it?

    Think about the drainage and get it properly watertight. You are going to use a couple of litres of water per day, at least, in a viv that size. Silicone wont stick to plastics so dont use that to attach a plastic tube to a drilled hole in the bottom of the cabinet.. Been there, done that. :eek:
     
  16. Magnus A

    Magnus A Ph.D.

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    Karma, for the light I second Gordon.
    Maybe you can use an aluminium beam supported in the en by some distances to bring it up over the top glas. Then you could fasten the light fixture to this beam. For the distances you could look at my solution for inspiration... ;)

    afarm3.static.flickr.com_2556_4200557864_53aa7e5a7e_m.jpg
     
  17. orchidkarma

    orchidkarma Member

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    Thanks a lot Gordon for all that great input!! :) I was actually just about to press the "buy" button on Dartfrog when your message came in, I must say I feel extra good about my choice now. Nice to hear from someone using the system before committing.

    And thanks for the inspirational photo Magnus, nicely done! I will attempt to copy that solution for the lights. :)

    So, big time shopping spree...... I ended up getting four 80W-DuluxL Complete setups, on Marc at Dartfrog's recommendation (in fact, I received a very nice reply to all my questions from him this morning). I also got their basic mist-system (Vivaria) with 4 extra complete nozzles. So I will have a total of 6 nozzles for starters. If I need more the system supports up to 10 nozzles so that feels good. Nice to hear that they are flexible and fairly easy to adjust. Oh, and it does include a burn-out protection module. I also got a seconds timer (Dragon) and a thermo-hygro combo sensor for measuring the temperature and humidity. The pro model has two probes, one combined temperature/humidity and one just for temperature. I figured that would be nice for measuring temp both where the cold air comes in as well as on the other side of the viv. as I am sure this will differ considerably at times.

    I also placed a big order from Dusk for a whole bunch of EpiWeb - huge panels of it - as well as their digital hygrostat och termostat. So hopefully I will be building the interior of the viv. really soon.

    Hmm... I will have to think about how to mount the EpiWeb for sure. I have no idea what the waterfilled panels will weigh, I will ask Dusk. I might have to build some sort of framework for it like you say, the back wall might need some support at least.

    Thanks for the heads up again on the silicone, as it is tempting to use. But I will use a hot glue gun to attach the drain to the floor - I will probably use the same for water sealing the seams too. Although it will be a bitch to remove should I need to... but let's hope I never do.
     
  18. Alexis

    Alexis New Member

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    Sorry, Karma, I just saw your question. My Orch is 25" wide x 21" deep x 37" tall. With 10 heads, I probably have some redundancies, but I'm finally getting the coverage I need. I found that once my plants started getting larger, they'd block those below them. I had a number of bone dry spots. Not now! ;)
     
  19. orchidkarma

    orchidkarma Member

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    No worries Alex. Thanks for your input. Wow, that is a lot of nozzles you've got he he! :eek: I just ordered the misting system this morning and I am getting 6 nozzles for starters, but I can supplement with up to 4 more if needed. It might be necessary as I get more plants in there as you experienced, with larger plants blocking etc. We'll see. I am sure there will be a lot of adjusting along the way.
     
  20. orchidkarma

    orchidkarma Member

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    Ok... I finally have made some headway on the build! I am still waiting for a lot of material to come in as some stuff has been on backorder and the weather has delayed some shipments.

    I finally go the bottom sealed - and I actually ended up going over all the seams to be safe. First I tried using a hot glue gun since people told me silicone won’t not stick to plastic or aluminum. Well... neither will hot glue!! So I bought some super silicone glue called Superfix, it is supposed to stick to anything, and so far it looks like it worked.

    I picked up glass for the new top. I decided to have it split it into two pieces since trying to handle a 65×175cm large piece of glass really would be a pain. I think this will be good. I also mounted the EpiWeb walls, a big job to cut the large panels to size, but it turned out great. I could not finish this job completely as I did not get all the pieces (still waiting on some EW branches), so I did as much as I could. I still have to plant/smear the tropical moss mixture on it too once I have assembled all the pieces. I attached my panels with carriage bolts so I can take them back down again if I need to. I think it will come in handy when I do the moss, it will be easier to do with the panels laying down.

    At least I feel like the project is finally moving forward, finally!! :) Hopefully lights and watering system will come in this week. There are a lot more photos from this weekend's project on my blog if anyone is curious.

    More to come as this project progresses.

    afarm5.static.flickr.com_4054_4413414215_953eddc9f8_b.jpg afarm5.static.flickr.com_4001_4414180962_0c90a950bf.jpg